Comments on: New Study Quantifies High Personal Costs of Building CA Cities for Cars http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/11/20/21701/ Covering Los Angeles's livable streets movement Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:06:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: DJB http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/11/20/21701/comment-page-1/#comment-51131 DJB Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:59:25 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=21701#comment-51131 Single family homes on small lots are a good way to compromise on density. East LA has a lot of good examples of the concept along the new Gold Line Extension, including a very interesting design just south of the Pico/Aliso station. If the house sits on 4,000 square feet you can do about 11 of them per acre. You can maintain interior floor space by going up a story and putting some of the second story over the garage. The combination of small-lot single family homes and 2-3 story apartment buildings should be able to provide enough density to support some transit and walkability. However, I prefer to go denser than that. That's where the real benefits are. Single family homes on small lots are a good way to compromise on density. East LA has a lot of good examples of the concept along the new Gold Line Extension, including a very interesting design just south of the Pico/Aliso station. If the house sits on 4,000 square feet you can do about 11 of them per acre. You can maintain interior floor space by going up a story and putting some of the second story over the garage.

The combination of small-lot single family homes and 2-3 story apartment buildings should be able to provide enough density to support some transit and walkability.

However, I prefer to go denser than that. That’s where the real benefits are.

]]> By: Spokker http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/11/20/21701/comment-page-1/#comment-50851 Spokker Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:57:44 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=21701#comment-50851 Let's say you worked in Downtown LA. You're telling me that some people wouldn't find it attractive to live near the Gold Line and commute into Downtown every day once the regional connector is open? Sounds more attractive to me than living in Pomona and tackling the 10 everyday. Let’s say you worked in Downtown LA. You’re telling me that some people wouldn’t find it attractive to live near the Gold Line and commute into Downtown every day once the regional connector is open? Sounds more attractive to me than living in Pomona and tackling the 10 everyday.

]]> By: Spokker http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/11/20/21701/comment-page-1/#comment-50841 Spokker Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:55:39 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=21701#comment-50841 New York City is just one extreme and no one says you have to live in a place like that. Hell, even streetcar suburbs weren't that bad as far as suburban development patterns go. Some of them were actually relatively dense. I still think there are ways to live close to transit and closer to work without having to deal with the bums downtown, John. Where do you choose to live anyway? New York City is just one extreme and no one says you have to live in a place like that. Hell, even streetcar suburbs weren’t that bad as far as suburban development patterns go. Some of them were actually relatively dense. I still think there are ways to live close to transit and closer to work without having to deal with the bums downtown, John.

Where do you choose to live anyway?

]]> By: John Boucher http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/11/20/21701/comment-page-1/#comment-50821 John Boucher Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:34:25 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=21701#comment-50821 DJB - I swear, this Metro fetish is just bizarre. If little electric trains and high density housing are the savior of the world and the solution to Global Warming, then how come NYC isn't the Garden of Eden? Been there, seen it, don't want to do it again. DJB – I swear, this Metro fetish is just bizarre. If little electric trains and high density housing are the savior of the world and the solution to Global Warming, then how come NYC isn’t the Garden of Eden?

Been there, seen it, don’t want to do it again.

]]> By: DJB http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/11/20/21701/comment-page-1/#comment-50791 DJB Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:41:11 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=21701#comment-50791 John, you just proved my point beautifully :) John, you just proved my point beautifully :)

]]> By: Spokker http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/11/20/21701/comment-page-1/#comment-50781 Spokker Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:34:56 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=21701#comment-50781 "It's what millions left behind when they fled the cities for the suburbs." How well has that been working out? Last year they were showing a special on PBS about homeowners in Temecula and Murrieta going apeshit over gas prices and home foreclosures. One dude, a real man's man, owned a truck nearly his whole life and after 2008 the fucker was driving a Prius with three other people. People scream, "But the free market! The free market! People will live where they want!" all day but you have to determine whether the free market actually was at work all these years. You know, if planning favored the suburbs, if government funding favored the suburbs, if policies favored single family homes, how free market is that? If I wanted to live in the city, but I saw that they were only investing in the suburbs and not urban areas, I'm going to choose the suburbs! The decision was practically made for me! If you had a bunch of blacks and Hispanics wanting to move to the suburbs but local governments artificially inflated the price of housing by enacting strict zoning laws and outright banning the construction of apartment units in some cases, how free market is that? If a company wants to build an apartment, why prevent them from doing so? Where's the laissez faire attitude then? Some people advocate pro-choice attitudes about where people can live. I'd like to see it, believe me. “It’s what millions left behind when they fled the cities for the suburbs.”

How well has that been working out? Last year they were showing a special on PBS about homeowners in Temecula and Murrieta going apeshit over gas prices and home foreclosures. One dude, a real man’s man, owned a truck nearly his whole life and after 2008 the fucker was driving a Prius with three other people.

People scream, “But the free market! The free market! People will live where they want!” all day but you have to determine whether the free market actually was at work all these years. You know, if planning favored the suburbs, if government funding favored the suburbs, if policies favored single family homes, how free market is that? If I wanted to live in the city, but I saw that they were only investing in the suburbs and not urban areas, I’m going to choose the suburbs! The decision was practically made for me!

If you had a bunch of blacks and Hispanics wanting to move to the suburbs but local governments artificially inflated the price of housing by enacting strict zoning laws and outright banning the construction of apartment units in some cases, how free market is that? If a company wants to build an apartment, why prevent them from doing so? Where’s the laissez faire attitude then?

Some people advocate pro-choice attitudes about where people can live. I’d like to see it, believe me.

]]> By: John Boucher http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/11/20/21701/comment-page-1/#comment-50751 John Boucher Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:28:18 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=21701#comment-50751 This revelation is absurd. If people wanted to live in small stacked boxes and spend their time being trundled around in dismal public transportation, they would. I grew up in New York and believe me, your wonderful future is my not so golden past. It's what millions left behind when they fled the cities for the suburbs. This revelation is absurd. If people wanted to live in small stacked boxes and spend their time being trundled around in dismal public transportation, they would. I grew up in New York and believe me, your wonderful future is my not so golden past. It’s what millions left behind when they fled the cities for the suburbs.

]]> By: DJB http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/11/20/21701/comment-page-1/#comment-50721 DJB Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:40:00 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=21701#comment-50721 "Provide cities and counties with an infusion of funds to engage the community in planning." ----- This gets to a core dilemma. What if the community wants to sprawl? What if they don't care about the financial and environmental costs of suburbia and driving? If you truly engage people like that in a planning process, won't you loose all of the smart growth content you're after? It's really hard, because land use authority is local, and people, particularly homeowners, tend to vote with their feet. They move to places they like, if they have a choice. Hence, these people probably want things to stay the same way they were when they moved in. There may be an agonizing tradeoff between wider participation and achieving cities with better environmental performance. What's more important? A good process or a good result? “Provide cities and counties with an infusion of funds to engage the community in planning.”
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This gets to a core dilemma. What if the community wants to sprawl? What if they don’t care about the financial and environmental costs of suburbia and driving? If you truly engage people like that in a planning process, won’t you loose all of the smart growth content you’re after?

It’s really hard, because land use authority is local, and people, particularly homeowners, tend to vote with their feet. They move to places they like, if they have a choice. Hence, these people probably want things to stay the same way they were when they moved in.

There may be an agonizing tradeoff between wider participation and achieving cities with better environmental performance. What’s more important? A good process or a good result?

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