Comments on: Finding Effective Arguments for Funding Mass Transit http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/05/12/finding-effective-arguments-for-funding-mass-transit/ Covering Los Angeles's livable streets movement Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:06:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Brent http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/05/12/finding-effective-arguments-for-funding-mass-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-5719 Brent Wed, 13 May 2009 22:36:22 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=2134#comment-5719 It appears my response to Kymberleigh is forever "awaiting moderation," perhaps because of the half-dozen links I posted. In sum: several public transportation agencies, both municipal and national, around the world have operated at a profit. I realize that U.S. public transportation hasn't had that kind of record, but it is at least demonstrably possible to do so. Too, I am certain that Kymberleigh has studied these issues more than I, and I would be interested in the sort of arguments she would give Peter. In my own post, I had really hoped to help along the main discussion, and the comments so far haven't addressed this call for help thoroughly. It appears my response to Kymberleigh is forever “awaiting moderation,” perhaps because of the half-dozen links I posted.

In sum: several public transportation agencies, both municipal and national, around the world have operated at a profit. I realize that U.S. public transportation hasn’t had that kind of record, but it is at least demonstrably possible to do so.

Too, I am certain that Kymberleigh has studied these issues more than I, and I would be interested in the sort of arguments she would give Peter. In my own post, I had really hoped to help along the main discussion, and the comments so far haven’t addressed this call for help thoroughly.

]]> By: LAofAnaheim http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/05/12/finding-effective-arguments-for-funding-mass-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-5702 LAofAnaheim Wed, 13 May 2009 01:46:23 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=2134#comment-5702 Keep in mind Kymberleigh that even though mass transit never turns a profit...it allows cities to develop more densely and, in turn, gives greater tax revenue to the local governments. More tax revenue can be generated by a square mile in New York City than probably 20 in Phoenix, AZ. Remember, mass transit does give cities the abilities to charge 'benefit assessments' to recoup those losses on the actual operating costs. However, the benefits more than make up the lost costs. Imagine, if a company was losing so much cash per year......why would they continue to fund it? Just to be green? No...there are other benefits, and that's why smart cities continue to fund a "losing cause". Keep in mind Kymberleigh that even though mass transit never turns a profit…it allows cities to develop more densely and, in turn, gives greater tax revenue to the local governments. More tax revenue can be generated by a square mile in New York City than probably 20 in Phoenix, AZ. Remember, mass transit does give cities the abilities to charge ‘benefit assessments’ to recoup those losses on the actual operating costs. However, the benefits more than make up the lost costs.

Imagine, if a company was losing so much cash per year……why would they continue to fund it? Just to be green? No…there are other benefits, and that’s why smart cities continue to fund a “losing cause”.

]]> By: Brent http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/05/12/finding-effective-arguments-for-funding-mass-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-5698 Brent Tue, 12 May 2009 23:50:59 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=2134#comment-5698 [Kymberleigh says I'm conjecturing.] Ah. My apologies. I seem to have entered a no conjecture zone. ;-) Actually, I'm just trying to throw out ideas for Peter to take to his neighbors. Profit does depend on how you look at it, of course: India subway "operationally profitable": http://tinyurl.com/o2mr9s Singapore transit makes "record net profit": http://tinyurl.com/rex8jc Japanese subway "profitable": http://tinyurl.com/omtr46 I haven't spent much time doing the research, but if you say U.S. transit doesn't make a profit, I'll go with it. But why can't we be like the Indians, or the Singaporeans, or the Japanese? What's wrong with us? Or, for that matter, why can't we be like the French, who have managed to make their beloved TGV profitable? ( http://tinyurl.com/rxjqdr ) Or the Spanish, whose AVE is slated to go off state aid in 2010? ( http://tinyurl.com/ryo2bf ) [Kymberleigh says I'm conjecturing.]

Ah. My apologies. I seem to have entered a no conjecture zone. ;-)

Actually, I’m just trying to throw out ideas for Peter to take to his neighbors.

Profit does depend on how you look at it, of course:

India subway “operationally profitable”: http://tinyurl.com/o2mr9s
Singapore transit makes “record net profit”: http://tinyurl.com/rex8jc
Japanese subway “profitable”: http://tinyurl.com/omtr46

I haven’t spent much time doing the research, but if you say U.S. transit doesn’t make a profit, I’ll go with it.

But why can’t we be like the Indians, or the Singaporeans, or the Japanese? What’s wrong with us?

Or, for that matter, why can’t we be like the French, who have managed to make their beloved TGV profitable? ( http://tinyurl.com/rxjqdr ) Or the Spanish, whose AVE is slated to go off state aid in 2010? ( http://tinyurl.com/ryo2bf )

]]> By: Kymberleigh Richards http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/05/12/finding-effective-arguments-for-funding-mass-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-5696 Kymberleigh Richards Tue, 12 May 2009 21:56:10 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=2134#comment-5696 I have to ask, Brent, since I've done the research and come to the conclusion that public transportation has NEVER been profitable (even the famed Red Cars ran at an operating loss), how you have come to the conclusion that "transit can actually turn a profit for the city". Perhaps you are unaware that "ticket sales and concession rentals" contribute little to the cost of operating public transportation. In fact, most transit agencies are lucky if fares recover one-third of the operating costs. There aren't enough "concessions" available to cover two-thirds. However, if you have some hard facts to go along with what appear to be your opinions or conjecture, I'd be happy to hear them. What I read in your original post is a conclusion with no means of support. I have to ask, Brent, since I’ve done the research and come to the conclusion that public transportation has NEVER been profitable (even the famed Red Cars ran at an operating loss), how you have come to the conclusion that “transit can actually turn a profit for the city”.

Perhaps you are unaware that “ticket sales and concession rentals” contribute little to the cost of operating public transportation. In fact, most transit agencies are lucky if fares recover one-third of the operating costs. There aren’t enough “concessions” available to cover two-thirds.

However, if you have some hard facts to go along with what appear to be your opinions or conjecture, I’d be happy to hear them. What I read in your original post is a conclusion with no means of support.

]]> By: Spokker http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/05/12/finding-effective-arguments-for-funding-mass-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-5692 Spokker Tue, 12 May 2009 19:27:29 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=2134#comment-5692 Why do you characterize turning a profit as greed? Why do you characterize turning a profit as greed?

]]> By: Zane Selvans http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/05/12/finding-effective-arguments-for-funding-mass-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-5691 Zane Selvans Tue, 12 May 2009 19:26:00 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=2134#comment-5691 I had the same kind of realization at the LA bike summit. Social justice is good, and a lot of the already-biking audience is receptive to it as an argument for better pedestrian, bicycle, and transit facilities, but the people who actually need to be convinced largely don't care, or prioritize it highly. So I think it's potentially much more productive to focus on the bare economic arguments, which (thankfully) are also strong. How much transportation value (people moved to where they need to be every day) would we get out of a billion dollar investment in bike infrastructure in SoCal? Is that greater, or lesser than the same billion dollars spent on, say, a fraction of the proposed 710 tunnel south of Pasadena? You can probably guess what I think. I had the same kind of realization at the LA bike summit. Social justice is good, and a lot of the already-biking audience is receptive to it as an argument for better pedestrian, bicycle, and transit facilities, but the people who actually need to be convinced largely don’t care, or prioritize it highly. So I think it’s potentially much more productive to focus on the bare economic arguments, which (thankfully) are also strong. How much transportation value (people moved to where they need to be every day) would we get out of a billion dollar investment in bike infrastructure in SoCal? Is that greater, or lesser than the same billion dollars spent on, say, a fraction of the proposed 710 tunnel south of Pasadena? You can probably guess what I think.

]]> By: Brent http://la.streetsblog.org/2009/05/12/finding-effective-arguments-for-funding-mass-transit/comment-page-1/#comment-5689 Brent Tue, 12 May 2009 18:03:37 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=2134#comment-5689 An old saw in the money business says that people's money motivations can be grouped into two emotions: greed and fear. If this is true, then the effective argument has to play on both. Here are a couple I can think of off hand: Greed 1) Mass transit generates revenue through ticket sales and concession rentals; roads do not. Mass transit can actually turn a profit for the city. Roads generate no additional revenue. 2) Mass transit allows cities precise control over which areas to target for economic development. Careful placement of transit hubs and feeders can help revitalize downtrodden sectors. Fear 1) Gridlock kills business. Mass transit solves gridlock. 2) Fuel prices will rise again. Car traffic will slow. You will lose your elected seat because you did not have the foresight to build out non-car transit alternatives. An old saw in the money business says that people’s money motivations can be grouped into two emotions: greed and fear. If this is true, then the effective argument has to play on both. Here are a couple I can think of off hand:

Greed

1) Mass transit generates revenue through ticket sales and concession rentals; roads do not. Mass transit can actually turn a profit for the city. Roads generate no additional revenue.

2) Mass transit allows cities precise control over which areas to target for economic development. Careful placement of transit hubs and feeders can help revitalize downtrodden sectors.

Fear

1) Gridlock kills business. Mass transit solves gridlock.

2) Fuel prices will rise again. Car traffic will slow. You will lose your elected seat because you did not have the foresight to build out non-car transit alternatives.

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