Comments on: Study Finds Cyclists Need Safer Streets http://la.streetsblog.org/2008/11/19/study-finds-cyclists-need-safer-streets/ Covering Los Angeles's livable streets movement Sat, 21 Nov 2009 21:23:58 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Alex Thompson http://la.streetsblog.org/2008/11/19/study-finds-cyclists-need-safer-streets/comment-page-1/#comment-3122 Alex Thompson Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:21:12 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=1403#comment-3122 "All too often, convenience trumps safety." - NTOAT What can be done about that? I don't know. The best known example --> over-reliance on the private car. "All too often, convenience trumps safety." - NTOAT

What can be done about that? I don't know. The best known example --> over-reliance on the private car.

]]> By: Not the original AT http://la.streetsblog.org/2008/11/19/study-finds-cyclists-need-safer-streets/comment-page-1/#comment-3114 Not the original AT Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:51:43 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=1403#comment-3114 Very good point Alex. The only problem that I see is that your question "Do we want safety, or do we want utter deference to the law?" will devolve in practice (and has done so) to "Do we want safety, or do we want convenience?" All too often, convenience trumps safety. Very good point Alex.
The only problem that I see is that your question "Do we want safety, or do we want utter deference to the law?" will devolve in practice (and has done so) to "Do we want safety, or do we want convenience?"

All too often, convenience trumps safety.

]]> By: Alex Thompson http://la.streetsblog.org/2008/11/19/study-finds-cyclists-need-safer-streets/comment-page-1/#comment-3113 Alex Thompson Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:56:18 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=1403#comment-3113 Timur - agreed - so much of what we often moralize about - "it's bad to run red lights" - amounts to attaching a moral tenor to obeying conventions. I don't think it's totally illegitimate to argue that it is moral to adhere to certain conventions, but it's definitely important to remember they are conventions, and the morality of adhering to them arises from a reduction in danger, not from any inherent rightness. Which means, ignoring them selectively might not be all bad. Timur - agreed - so much of what we often moralize about - "it's bad to run red lights" - amounts to attaching a moral tenor to obeying conventions. I don't think it's totally illegitimate to argue that it is moral to adhere to certain conventions, but it's definitely important to remember they are conventions, and the morality of adhering to them arises from a reduction in danger, not from any inherent rightness. Which means, ignoring them selectively might not be all bad.

]]> By: timur http://la.streetsblog.org/2008/11/19/study-finds-cyclists-need-safer-streets/comment-page-1/#comment-3107 timur Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:28:58 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=1403#comment-3107 Alex, that's a good point. There was a New Yorker article a little while back talking about John Stuart Mill's attitude about rights: We don't have rights because they're god-given or inalienable or anything like that; we have rights because they're useful to have. By the same token, why do we have laws? Not because we have to, but because they're useful for us. And if the laws, as currently written, aren't useful, what are our obligations as cyclists? Alex, that's a good point. There was a New Yorker article a little while back talking about John Stuart Mill's attitude about rights: We don't have rights because they're god-given or inalienable or anything like that; we have rights because they're useful to have. By the same token, why do we have laws? Not because we have to, but because they're useful for us. And if the laws, as currently written, aren't useful, what are our obligations as cyclists?

]]> By: Alex Thompson http://la.streetsblog.org/2008/11/19/study-finds-cyclists-need-safer-streets/comment-page-1/#comment-3104 Alex Thompson Thu, 20 Nov 2008 04:33:59 +0000 http://la.streetsblog.org/?p=1403#comment-3104 Gotta love how they lead with "more obedience of traffic laws and helmet use". Jeez - you'd think the people who do these studies have no experience with these things = what's your plan to increase adherence to traffic laws AND increase cycling? Because increased cycling leads to huge gains in safety, and we need to move that direction anyway. You know, Americans aren't the Dutch - we're not going to stand at a red light in the middle of a blizzard with no one around an wait. I'll blow that light 11 times out of 10, and so will most Americans - motorists and cyclists. We need to get real about what we really want and expect from cyclists. Do we want safety, or do we want utter deference to the law? The answer is clear - safety - that's the purpose of the law. End rant - I oughtta flesh that out into a post. Gotta love how they lead with "more obedience of traffic laws and helmet use". Jeez - you'd think the people who do these studies have no experience with these things = what's your plan to increase adherence to traffic laws AND increase cycling? Because increased cycling leads to huge gains in safety, and we need to move that direction anyway.

You know, Americans aren't the Dutch - we're not going to stand at a red light in the middle of a blizzard with no one around an wait. I'll blow that light 11 times out of 10, and so will most Americans - motorists and cyclists. We need to get real about what we really want and expect from cyclists. Do we want safety, or do we want utter deference to the law? The answer is clear - safety - that's the purpose of the law.

End rant - I oughtta flesh that out into a post.

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